Curse

Benderama · Jun 03, 2010, 06:38 PM // 18:38

same as running not an exploit because its playing the game how its meant to be played. books were meant to be cashed in for rep. points. figuring out the most efficient way to do it is fine. paying someone to do the missions for you is fine.

i'd be more worried about exploits such as ferrying e.t.c.

byteme! · Jun 03, 2010, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sticks and Stones

I waited quite a while for a reply, two days ago I got this:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting the Guild Wars Support Team.

I am escalating your ticket to our Guild Wars senior staff members to assist you further. Once they have reviewed your question, one of them will contact you as soon as possible.

Regards,
GM Martina
The Guild Wars Support Team

Today we finally have a concrete answer:

Hello,

I have reviewed the information in the provided link and I could not find anything in there that would be considered a violation. Please let me know if you have any other questions or require further assistance.

Regards,
GM CherryViper
The Guild Wars Support Team

( the link I provided was this- http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Hero_Speedbook )

So there you have it folks, speedbook to your hearts content.

So this settles it. Now you people can quit with your theories. It's amazing what some of you people come up with. Next time someone asks you can tell them without a doubt speedbooking is not a bannable offence.

Eragon Zarroc · Jun 03, 2010, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sticks and Stones

Today we finally have a concrete answer:

Hello,

I have reviewed the information in the provided link and I could not find anything in there that would be considered a violation. Please let me know if you have any other questions or require further assistance.

Regards,
GM CherryViper
The Guild Wars Support Team

( the link I provided was this- http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Hero_Speedbook )

So there you have it folks, speedbook to your hearts content.

basically saying: "There is no possible way that we can detect you doing this exploit. It is an exploit that we are well aware of but not concerned about at this moment because it is non-threatening. Since we know it exists, can't track you when you take advantage of it, and we know that it doesn't really matter, it's not a violation."

byteme! · Jun 03, 2010, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

basically saying: "There is no possible way that we can detect you doing this exploit. It is an exploit that we are well aware of but not concerned about at this moment because it is non-threatening. Since we know it exists, can't track you when you take advantage of it, and we know that it doesn't really matter, it's not a violation."

Typical guru member twisting things around. Case is closed pal.

Another Felldspar · Jun 03, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sticks and Stones

I did it a couple of runs and it felt wrong, so I'm going to no longer do it. It does seem like a cheat to me, because I didn't need to work hard for the reward, and therin lies the problem, because it's not much of a reward if it takes minutes to get.

Exactly right -- even if it isn't bannable, if it makes you feel slimy don't do it.

Hero flagging is slimy.

(Datura) · Jun 03, 2010, 11:22 PM // 23:22

This is clearly an exploit imo but I agree with A-Net not banning for it.

Apok · Jun 04, 2010, 12:08 AM // 00:08

It would probably take them more time than they have to reprogram NPC's to trigger normal spawns.

epicfail86 · Jun 04, 2010, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok

It would probably take them more time than they have to reprogram NPC's to trigger normal spawns.

They just did this in todays update. hero speedbooking is done.

Lishy · Jun 04, 2010, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Well, I hope whoever insists it's an exploit is happy now. Apparently it's 'nerfed' now. So now we must go back to annoying vanquish grinding just to get 4k of rep. Yup. Hope the people are happy. Killjoys.

Life Bringing · Jun 04, 2010, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Grindwars is coming everybody! Get excited!

Erik Fox · Jun 04, 2010, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Sigh, one of the few 'meta' popular things I actually got into. Stayed away from the SF sins, the ursans, etc. This was kinda fun for me. Oh well, guess I won't get any EotN titles anymore.

Zapper901 · Jun 04, 2010, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Did this seriously just get nerfed? Wow, amazing timing for me. Just started doing it 2 days ago to finish off my Norn and Vanguard title, and I finished my last of 56 books last night, except for AtfH, which I still have to do 11 more times. Really glad I did it now <_<.

dancing gnome · Jun 04, 2010, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapper901

Did this seriously just get nerfed? Wow, amazing timing for me. Just started doing it 2 days ago to finish off my Norn and Vanguard title, and I finished my last of 56 books last night, except for AtfH, which I still have to do 11 more times. Really glad I did it now <_<.

Gotta love how ANet works. Throw down the ban hammer to scare people into playing the game as it was intended.

Some people roll the dice on Speedbooking and max titles easily in a way which was unintended and then it is nerfed but those people aren't banned. So basically use an exploit early on and hope you don't get banned after they fix it.

The people who suffered from this are those who "played the game as it was intended" and grind their way up that stupid rep experience bar for days on end while a few people who rolled the dice on an exploit got easy rewards quickly with minimal effort get to keep their undeserved rewards while the rest of us have to continue to grind grind grind grind grind.

GG ANet, classy move there.

aspi · Jun 04, 2010, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Ah come on eotn titles are pretty easy to get, I got my titles from completing the game, dungeons, zaishen and VQ.

Lishy · Jun 04, 2010, 09:40 AM // 09:40

'Scuse me, but I got Master of the North and all I've maxed was Norn. And that was because I grinded it in the Ursan days. On average, playing the game "normally" for these easy titles should get you estimated near 60,000 Vanguard, 10,000 Delver, and 9,000 Asura. That doesn't look easy to max to me, because even with Delver, you got 60,000 more to go. Keep in mind I'm talking post-vanquishing all of eotn, hm and nming ALL dungeons, etc.. etc...

Do the math and you will see it's not so easy without a grind.

I'd like to note I NEVER speedbooked before though.

Mintha Syl · Jun 04, 2010, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

Ah come on eotn titles are pretty easy to get, I got my titles from completing the game, dungeons, zaishen and VQ.

Agreed.
And, you people now tell me how getting dead, flagging and afking can be mfunnier than do this things.

tummlykins · Jun 04, 2010, 09:45 AM // 09:45

The recent dropping of the ban hammer has bothered me a lot. I don't have an issue with the botting bans. Botting is clearly against the rules.

My issue is with bans for Guild Wars exploits.

When I talk about bans for exploits I'm talking about the bans that fell under the umbrella term of "match fixing". Now match fixing seems to apply to resigning during an MaT so both teams got points, resigning an an arena to give the other team Z Quest points and now apparently leeching is also match fixing.

I'll quote Gaile Gray from her support issues talk page on the Guild Wars Wiki when asked for an expanded definition of match fixing, please note I am quoting paragraphs not entire posts of hers and it's possible some meaningful context is lost, if you wish to see the full discussion you can find it on the wiki;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray, ArenaNet Support Liaison

Anything case of match manipulation may be actioned. We don't only enforce the Rules of Conduct and the Tournament Rules during a MAT; an account can be actioned at any time at all for wrongdoing. So fixing a match -- for instance, instantly resigning a match to give someone else points -- is wrong and subject to account action. Clearly, that's not playing the game the way it was intended to be played. It garners people undeserved and unearned rewards.

Specifically I'd like to draw attention to this part.

Quote:

Clearly, that's not playing the game the way it was intended to be played. It garners people undeserved and unearned rewards.

Now if people were banned for /resigning in PvP arenas to get Z Coin rewards, or leeching in FA or JQ to get allegiance faction, these people were not playing the game as it was intended and thus getting undeserved and unearned rewards.

What about people who used speed booking? These players did not play the game as it was intended. They did not play through a mission designed to take about 10-20 minutes to complete. They didn't really play at all - their heroes and henchmen did without spawning mobs that are supposed to be dealt with in order for the mission (and the book reward) to be balanced.

These players achieved titles, gold and experience as a reward for using an exploit (which was later removed from the game after it was brought to ArenaNet's attention). Other players have to grind raptors or vanquish zones to max the same titles, which is a significant amount of time required.

Where is the consistency? Why were players who used one exploit which didn't play the game as intended and gave unearned rewards banned and the other players who exploited the game ignored? Players who didn't use the speed book exploit missed out because it was nerfed but people who did it get to keep their titles and accounts. The rest of us have to play the game as it was intended.

When asked for some kind of FAQ to elaborate on vague umbrella terms like Match Fixing or even exploits which people can be banned for this was the response;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray, ArenaNet Support Liaison

Sorry, but it's impractical and imprudent for us to offer an ever-revised FAQ or a frequently-updated, comprehensive list of cheats. Because:

* It's not practical, or a good use of time, to write up such a document, only to have to update it the next week when someone devises a new way to cheat.
* We decline to waste time on the "it's not on the list, therefore you can't block me" arguments. Such discussions are utterly pointless, but some people do insist in trying to engage in them anyway.
* We don't want to build a list that provides a blueprint instructing other people how to cheat.
* It doesn't take a professional gamer to figure out if he's cheating or not. If it feels like it might be a cheat, it probably is a cheat. If you think "This can't be right" it's probably wrong.
* If you're unsure, you can always write [email protected] and ask.

Ask yourself, "Did I play through the match fairly? Did I refuse to play with cheats, hacks, or exploits?" Then you're fine. If you're trying the latest super-secret means to unbelievable wealth, then it's probably not so good. If it's "unbelievable" then it's probably wrong. Taking a dive, fixing a match, agreeing to insta-resign (based on colour, time, district, or the cycles of the moon) is clearly cheating. Full matches without cheats = good. Shortened matches for undeserved points = bad. Resigning because you didn't get your Take-A-Fall opponent = bad. And naturally, using a program that allows you to "play" while you're off having dinner is cheating. At the present time, I do not see that there's anything vague or unclear about this.

Let's be clear: There is no "point of tolerance" for cheating. If you cheat once, you risk an account termination. If you aren't caught today, you may be caught tomorrow. If you're not caught for a while, maybe we're taking names and building a list that will include your account. Maybe we don't have the tools yet to track a particular issue, but are working on that tool. Maybe when it's enabled, everyone who ever used that particular cheat will be banned. There is precedent for this in the past, in the game and in real life. That sort of sanction is perfectly fair. If something is a cheat and isn't caught, the cheat doesn't have a shelf life, using it is not forgiven, and those who use it can and may be actioned at a later date.

The perception that exploits and game abuse are "clear" is just plain wrong. Guild Wars is a game which is played on exploits. Some are more obvious than others and grant greater rewards (speed booking, vanquishing areas while having a quest active which reduces enemy numbers to either none or very few, skipping large chunks of slaver's exile so you can kill Duncan over and over). Some seem benign and harmless with minimal reward (using shadow steps to jump past the Golems during the Trial of Zinn so you can explore Arbor Bay without mobs, using Recall on a hero to slip past krytan villagers and Lose Magic in Divinity Coast Explorable so you can sneak a peak at what is happening there). Most methods of completing elite missions in HM involve some kind of exploit.

More importantly, ArenaNet themselves have a history of treating exploits with different levels of punishment (not necessarily relating to the level of offence). Some are completely ignored giving a perception that it's not an exploit but a creative way of playing the game and some are permanent bans. Some people considered the strategies in the above paragraph to be exploits, some people don't. That shows there is an inconsistency in perception of exploits and how clear it truly is.

I want ArenaNet to provide some of kind FAQ to give more detailed information on what they consider exploits in the current meta. They obviously already have a list - they are using it as ban criteria, so why can't they show us the ban criteria? I'm not asking for them to reveal detection critier, just a specific breach banned accounts are making that earn them a ban. "Match Fixing" or "Game Exploit" is incredibly vague. There are players who sometimes use exploits thinking its a fair and creative way to play the game. Most of these players would stop doing this if they were told that it was wrong and a bannable offence.

My goal here is for ArenaNet to become more transparent in their ban process. Getting banned because of a hidden rule book which could fit one of a million interpretations of the deliberately vague EULA is unfair. People already document most exploits on the wiki, in forums or teach them in game. People already argue it's not specifically in the EULA and thus can't be banned for it. Support already has a list because they are banning for it.

Get rid of the secrecy, lift the curtain and let us know what it is people are doing wrong so we don't do it as well. If something ArenaNet didn't think was wrong pops up, chances are players didn't know it either and a fair warning can be given.

Voltar · Jun 04, 2010, 09:46 AM // 09:46

even though i can't blame you (the OP) 1 bit for asking anet the question, i'm giving you a dirty look in my mind.

Hells Fury · Jun 04, 2010, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Agree on this and i feel your pain but you can't compare MAT and speedbooking. They've always considered pvp srs bsns.

According to that speed clears should be considered exploit. God forbid that someone detaches from the group and soloes some quest, although they've taken care of that to considering what they did to sliver (or fixing the bug in sliver as they say).
Edit:
"There is no "point of tolerance" for cheating. If you cheat once, you risk an account termination. If you aren't caught today, you may be caught tomorrow."

"If you're not caught for a while, maybe we're taking names and building a list that will include your account. Maybe we don't have the tools yet to track a particular issue, but are working on that tool. Maybe when it's enabled, everyone who ever used that particular cheat will be banned."

They said that red resign was match manipulation. So considering this shit above in italic there will be more banned ppl. How bout save us some fcking time and tell us that right now. It would save time of a couple thousand people.
Dammit i raged.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 04, 2010, 10:10 AM // 10:10

I agree with you. In a game as old as Guild Wars it is only natural for people to have fun by finding weird ways to play the game. And if you start banning people for this where do you stop? If you stop seemingly arbitrarily the player base doesn't know what the hell your thinking and will feel nervous going from ToA to the Shiverpeaks for vanquishing purposes. If you are stopping at the point where all forms of exploits are bannable then people won't be having much fun at all and the game will be so linear that it is unplayable (maybe). Then again if you just let people go crazy you will have people finding new ways to dupe things and screw up the game entirely. So I think you're right and the only solution is transparency with what is right and wrong so that everyone has a clear idea of what is allowed and what isn't.

Anet needs to make a list and stick to that list. Until it does I'm putting on my aluminum cap.